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 95 TSI AWD HE351VE VGT Holset Build 
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Post 95 TSI AWD HE351VE VGT Holset Build
Here is my project.  Its back to not running again thanks to a machine shop mis-communication but here is what I did this summer. Some of you may find it useful, especially if interested in the Holset VGT turbos. I'm sure I will be updating it slowly. Some of it was copy past, so if it sounds funny, you know why.
Here is the original thread, which has more information and posts. http://www.homemadeturbo.com/forum/show ... hp?t=95221
More turbo information.
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=174&start=0

It was a pretty big project this summer, correcting a lot of DSM style little breakdowns and previous owner fuck ups as well as some of my own.
Really trying to clean the car up and make it nice again.  Unfortunately I ran out of time to do the paint and body work. Got the typical severe hrysler clearcoat fade.
The basics of the setup:
95 AWD
Stock trans
ACT 2600
94 Galant 2.4l
Eagle/wiseco 8.3:1
1000CC delphi's.
Whinebro 255HP
Stock 2g head/cams/intake
Megasquirt 2E 2.01
Stock exhaust manifold, with HMT style adapter to fit the turbo with included CDM 38mm gate
E85
For the moment, no intercooler and 8" of 3" pipe for the exhaust
Now the interesting part, VGT turbo, Holset HE351VE from a 6.7 Cummins.
Housing variable from very small, 3-4cm^2- to very large 25cm^2
The stock actuator on the turbo is an electrically controlled actuator normally controlled by the ECM.  Unfortunately I haven't figured out what kind of signal the ECM sends to the unit to position it. My experimental solution is a 14b wastegate actuator on the VGT rack arm. I didn't think it would work worth a shit, but so far its working pretty damn well.
Turbo compressor and turbine wheel dimensions.
Wheel measurements
Turbine
EX 2.357
IND 2.755

Compressor
EX 3.38
IND 2.37
Compressor is as close as I can measure since its a 7 bladed wheel. Measurements similar to the large 6bladed HX40.

Quote:
Yes it is a 2.4l. 8-8.3:1 compression.

Here were my initial spool results with the VGT rack fully closed and fixed there. This is just the first log I opened.
Here are the the most important things affecting spool

I can't remember what gear for sure but I think its 4th.

8" of 3" pipe for an exhaust
No intercooler
E85
8-8.3:1 compression
stock head, cams, intake manifold
Fairly low timing
1800 1psi
2000rpm 3psi
2500 8psi
2600 10 psi


Its a little slower now, the actuator starts to open the thing up a little sooner than I'd like.

Keep in mind this thing has a compressor in the GT35R size class.


I'll start with turbo pictures since its out of the ordinary.
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VGT closed
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VGT open
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Turbine wheel and VGT vanes.
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Compressor cover
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VGT actuator
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Actuator internals
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Compared to a stock 90-94 Eclipse 5spd 14b turbo also what the actuator I used came off of.
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Exhaust housing compared to a BEP housing for an HX40 and my ghetto adapter.
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My exhaust
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During adapter Fab. In these the radiator top brackets aren't in so the rad sits back and makes the clearance look smaller than it really is.
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Self Cooling Intercooler
Quote:
Is there such a thing? What I am thinking of is something like like air/water intercooler but instead of water passing thru it, the turbo sucks air thru it, then feeds the charge thru the side where it normally would on an air water intercooler. Thus cooling itself

FAIL


January 10th, 2009, 11:12 pm
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Joined: January 11th, 2009, 10:08 pm
Posts: 2
Post Re: 95 TSI AWD HE351VE VGT Holset Build
So finally a location to discuss the possibilities with vgt, i love it.


January 11th, 2009, 10:10 pm
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Post Re: 95 TSI AWD HE351VE VGT Holset Build
Here is the VGT actuation setup.

How the wastegate actuator is attached to the turbo. It passes through the front motor mount due to packaging. It is from the stock 1g 5spd turbo, and is a ~9-10psi actuator.

Image

Image

Quote:
The actuator holds the VGT closed until 6-7 psi, then spool slows down. Its weird, driving normally you can't really hear much exhaust note wise the only thing you hear is the turbine wheel whistling, keep in mind this is through 8" of exhaust. Once it hits 6-7 lbs, the note changes totally, the rack is open fully by ~10-11 lbs I beleive. It sounds sort of like an electric cutout opening, but not as loud. I think even though it has a huge hotside the vanes still help quiet it down, but make it whistle more. Go under and overpass and it sounds like a jet flying by.
Here is a log from ~70mph cruise in 5th gear showing the transient response. 70kpa, to 9psi in about .95 seconds at ~3000-3100rpm.
It spools a good 1000-1200 rpm faster than the small 8 blade HX40 in the .55A/R bullseye housing I had on the car before. Even with the VGT open fully which is somewhere far above 1A/R. Over 3500rpm or so the boost keeps climbing, by 4400 rpm it reaches 24lbs and climbing rapidly. I'm really glad I included the external gate

Image

_________________
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Self Cooling Intercooler
Quote:
Is there such a thing? What I am thinking of is something like like air/water intercooler but instead of water passing thru it, the turbo sucks air thru it, then feeds the charge thru the side where it normally would on an air water intercooler. Thus cooling itself

FAIL


January 15th, 2009, 10:59 pm
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Post Re: 95 TSI AWD HE351VE VGT Holset Build
On the topic of the HE351VE. I stuck some clay in there and put the hotside on, then closed the VGT fully. Here is a picture of the clay and gap that exists for exhaust to pass through when its closed. Shows why it works as a brake on a diesel. Its somewhere around 1.5mm of flow area.
Image

_________________
Image

Self Cooling Intercooler
Quote:
Is there such a thing? What I am thinking of is something like like air/water intercooler but instead of water passing thru it, the turbo sucks air thru it, then feeds the charge thru the side where it normally would on an air water intercooler. Thus cooling itself

FAIL


January 17th, 2009, 11:26 pm
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Post Re: 95 TSI AWD HE351VE VGT Holset Build
Did you just fill the coolant passages under the VGT controller with Epoxy?

Also any luck getting the motor back together? We are still hibernating around here.


February 12th, 2009, 4:02 pm
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Post Re: 95 TSI AWD HE351VE VGT Holset Build
Blownshovel wrote:
Did you just fill the coolant passages under the VGT controller with Epoxy?

Also any luck getting the motor back together? We are still hibernating around here.


Yes filled them with epoxy so I could still have coolant through the rest of the turbo. I almost welded it, but this seemed easier to reverse to go back to the VGT actuator if people get it worked out.

I haven't done anything yet. I've had the itch something bad with the wonderful weather we have had the last couple weeks off and on. Its been awesome for Feb. Work and school has been kicking my ass though. :thumbsdown:

_________________
Image

Self Cooling Intercooler
Quote:
Is there such a thing? What I am thinking of is something like like air/water intercooler but instead of water passing thru it, the turbo sucks air thru it, then feeds the charge thru the side where it normally would on an air water intercooler. Thus cooling itself

FAIL


February 12th, 2009, 5:31 pm
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Post Re: 95 TSI AWD HE351VE VGT Holset Build
I'm not sure how reliable the epoxy would be.. and welds in general are porous.. hmm guess I'll have to think about that one some more

I'm just hanging loose hibernating at the moment. Haven't pulled the trigger on this turbo yet as I have other options as well. The T3 that is on the car just isn't enough for me. I have a couple holsets including HX35's . I have about 2 months before I really start fabbing for a different turbo.


February 13th, 2009, 7:38 am
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Post Re: 95 TSI AWD HE351VE VGT Holset Build
Blownshovel wrote:
I'm not sure how reliable the epoxy would be.. and welds in general are porous.. hmm guess I'll have to think about that one some more

I'm just hanging loose hibernating at the moment. Haven't pulled the trigger on this turbo yet as I have other options as well. The T3 that is on the car just isn't enough for me. I have a couple holsets including HX35's . I have about 2 months before I really start fabbing for a different turbo.


I am running a different type of coolant that doesn't build pressure the same way ethylene glycol and water does. I wasn't as concerned with leaks as I may have otherwise been. It is supposed to be more compatible with sealants also.

I'm not sure how well it would work otherwise.

_________________
Image

Self Cooling Intercooler
Quote:
Is there such a thing? What I am thinking of is something like like air/water intercooler but instead of water passing thru it, the turbo sucks air thru it, then feeds the charge thru the side where it normally would on an air water intercooler. Thus cooling itself

FAIL


February 13th, 2009, 1:12 pm
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Joined: March 26th, 2009, 9:52 am
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Post Re: 95 TSI AWD HE351VE VGT Holset Build
Aero
do you know if its possible to rotate the housings on these turbos? Ive pulled mine apart and cleaned it and i cant see why they couldn't be moved after pulling the little pin that holds them in place. since i am running a rear system its gonna be ugly trying to fit it in the way the exhaust housing is facing, it needs to rotate like 140 degrees or so.

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March 26th, 2009, 3:42 pm
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Post Re: 95 TSI AWD HE351VE VGT Holset Build
silverside wrote:
Aero
do you know if its possible to rotate the housings on these turbos? Ive pulled mine apart and cleaned it and i cant see why they couldn't be moved after pulling the little pin that holds them in place. since i am running a rear system its gonna be ugly trying to fit it in the way the exhaust housing is facing, it needs to rotate like 140 degrees or so.

Yes, After removing the pins you can put them wherever you want. :thumbsup:

_________________
Image

Self Cooling Intercooler
Quote:
Is there such a thing? What I am thinking of is something like like air/water intercooler but instead of water passing thru it, the turbo sucks air thru it, then feeds the charge thru the side where it normally would on an air water intercooler. Thus cooling itself

FAIL


March 26th, 2009, 4:41 pm
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Post Re: 95 TSI AWD HE351VE VGT Holset Build
Thanks man

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March 26th, 2009, 7:32 pm
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Post Re: 95 TSI AWD HE351VE VGT Holset Build
I couldn't tell by the pics how much throw there is on the actuator for the VGT. Do the vanes open up in direct correlation to how far the actuator is moved?

Basically, is there a way to mechanically limit the low and high sides to allow the actuator to only move between say 5cm2 and 18cm2. This way, you would still get the effect of a small turbine housing to spool, but when the 14b actuator opened it all the way, it was only making it to 18cm2 vs 25, keeping spool up time better. Would this not have the same effect as having an hx35/40 top end power, but spool like a 16g part throttle and up to about 8-9psi?

Seems this would be very useful on a 2.0l motor.


March 28th, 2009, 2:44 pm
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Post Re: 95 TSI AWD HE351VE VGT Holset Build
What does 5cm2 mean?

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March 28th, 2009, 5:54 pm
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Post Re: 95 TSI AWD HE351VE VGT Holset Build
It is about 1 to 1 (distance the teeth move is about equal to the turbine sleeve). I did not measure with a tool just what I remember. You could limit the travel of the actuator arm with a mechanical stop.


March 28th, 2009, 7:23 pm
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Post Re: 95 TSI AWD HE351VE VGT Holset Build
That is what I am saying, to limit it with a mechanical stop. That would at least keep the turbo from being such a lag monster up top.

5cm2 was a ballpark # that you could limit the small side to, if you were concerned about the smallest setting being a restriction and creating manifold backpressure.


March 28th, 2009, 9:31 pm
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Post Re: 95 TSI AWD HE351VE VGT Holset Build
Granted, the best way to do this would be to control the VGT electronically. We need to either find a way to have Megasquirt control the factory actuator, or some other idea.

A VW guy was experimenting with using a servomotor controlled by a MAP sensor using the 5v from the map to gradually open the vanes. I would only be worried about how the servomotor would hold up to the high heat.

Any ideas?


March 28th, 2009, 9:34 pm
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Post Re: 95 TSI AWD HE351VE VGT Holset Build
The factory controller will not last a long time with the heat a gas motor will produce. They are failing on factory turbo installs and the extra heat will kill them sooner. The actuator moving based on testing and logging info will come out. I know several folks working on them currently. One of which I know will come up with an electronic solution for his car. He doesn't plan on selling them as every motor/combo will be different. Backpressure, compressor speed, among other things come into play if you really want it to work at it's best. We hope to have his car running in July to start the long drawn out testing of gate location and feed rate.


March 29th, 2009, 7:10 am
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Post Re: 95 TSI AWD HE351VE VGT Holset Build
it would be nice to make a table based on MAP and TPS that would allow a servo to open the vanes at the right time. I wonder if this could be done with the AVC-R, although I don't know if it uses TPS as an input.


March 29th, 2009, 8:03 am
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Post Re: 95 TSI AWD HE351VE VGT Holset Build
TpS Map could be used as a basis once you figured out and built a table once you determined the other parameters to build the map/tps/rpm table


March 29th, 2009, 8:10 am
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Post Re: 95 TSI AWD HE351VE VGT Holset Build
boostforfun wrote:
That is what I am saying, to limit it with a mechanical stop. That would at least keep the turbo from being such a lag monster up top.

5cm2 was a ballpark # that you could limit the small side to, if you were concerned about the smallest setting being a restriction and creating manifold backpressure.

A stop on the bottom might not be a bad thing for some people and some engines, especially larger ones. It might also be good for some people, as I'm not 100% sure that all turbos close down to the same amount. With mine and the 2.4l, IMO it doesn't close too far.

As far as it being a lag monster up top, it isn't. The actuator closes it immediately as soon as the boost drops below 7-8psi, it doesn't matter what RPM you are running it at. Between shifts it closes at lesat part way, and lets it respool very quickly.
The rate of rise does start dropping after it fully opens above 7-8 psi though. Its still far from a lag monster with it fully open to the 25cm^2 and without the external gate dumping it will make 24lbs around 4400 rpm. You could keep the rate of rise higher until a higher boost level by adding a boost controller to the actuator air feed line preventing it from opening fully until a higher boost level. Which is something I plan on testing as soon as I get the car back on the road. I also plan on measuring exhaust backpressure to see how much changes really effect it.

IMO I would rather have the thing open all the way to reduce exhaust backpressure on the topend as much as possible, maximize turbine efficiency and reduce the amount of exhaust the wastegate is required to dump to hold boost where it is set.

From my understanding of the electronic actuator the failures of the stock one are from soot buildup. The original design didn't have onugh power to overcome the soot buildup and it would hurt them. I think since they are watercooled and the lack of soot in a gasoline engine they might work fine for us. That is just speculation on my part though. Eventually I'd like to have an electronic controller. I think there will eventually be on, there are a descent amount of people working on them. :thumbsup:



Sean, the cm^2 rating is the actual nozzle area that gas passes through to reach the turbine wheel. It is Holset, and a couple other manufactureres equivalent to Garrett's A/R ratio.

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Self Cooling Intercooler
Quote:
Is there such a thing? What I am thinking of is something like like air/water intercooler but instead of water passing thru it, the turbo sucks air thru it, then feeds the charge thru the side where it normally would on an air water intercooler. Thus cooling itself

FAIL


March 29th, 2009, 8:55 am
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